My first and final word on mixing religion and business. AKA, My sad day with Zig Ziglar

Ok, let me say this clearly before I go off on my rant.

I’m not anti-religion, anti-God, anti-your beliefs or faith. In fact, I believe that everyone must have faith whether it is in God or something else that you believe strongly enough in to have hope.

Today was a really sad day for me.

I just returned (after leaving VERY early) from a Zig Ziglar/Peter Lowe seminar. They promised to have some great speakers including the great Zig Ziglar and Charlie “Tremendous” Jones. I’ve been a fan of Zig Ziglar since I was 12 years old and read my first of many of his books “See You At The Top.” That book and my mom got me started on the road to selling.

Since that time, I’ve attended a number of Zig’s trainings. So, when he showed up in Boise, I thought what a great way to spend a day and to have our staff learn more too. Zig is a great guy.

Then I read the fine print (about 6 point type) there will be a 15 minute discussion of bible leadership principles for those who are interested.

Always a sign of impending danger, mixing religion with business, particularly business that I’m paying to be at; but I thought, oh well, 15 minutes isn’t bad, if Zig wants to save a few souls, that’s his business.

Then I got to the seminar.

It started out with people quoting scripture and didn’t stop, Zig quoted the bible, Charlie Jones quoted the bible, for more than the first three hours of the event.

But wait, I paid for a message of how to sell, how to get fired up in a slump, how to communicate better, how to manage time better (all promises in their full page ad in the paper) and what I got was a sermon and not even a particularly inspiring one.

It is really unfortunate when you watch an Icon’s time expire. And that is exactly what I'm afraid I witnessed today. I’ll never attend another Zig Ziglar event simply because I don’t want to pay to be ministered to. I don’t think I’m alone in my thoughts because when they sent people to the tables to buy their products, rather than a table rush, there was a trickle that could be barely be considered a steady stream, but not the trading floor mêlée you expect at an event that drew nearly 4000 people.

You know, the sad part is this, if they’d have said that this is a religious program right up front, if they would have said that Zig wants to sell you relationship books and tapes (he tried) then they would still have filled the room, likely even fuller than they did, but with people who wanted to be there for those reasons.

Instead, three hours into an all day event, a significant number of the audience started leaving. Two or three at a time, but steadily; in the end, what they had was a smaller audience of believers who would have come anyway and BROUGHT MORE just like them with money to spend if they’d have been honest in their advertising and not alienated a large part of the audience.

So what is the lesson in all this?

Religion and Politics remain a personal issue and your paid seminar is not your pulpit to convert the masses, period.

If you want to save souls then be all means do it, but be honest, be open about what you intend to do, don’t hide behind a six point type disclaimer that isn’t even accurate in the first place.

Zig, you’ve given me a lot through the years and I’ll always remember and apply the early lessons in SELLING that I learned from you and I’ll always be appreciative for the value, income and opportunity they brought me. But, if I want to go to a revival meeting I’ll go see Billy Graham and I won’t pay to be there unless I want to contribute an offering or they let me know right up front that I need to pay for the opportunity to be saved.

Now for those of you that have got this far and decided that I'm Atheist, Agnostic or anything else, I'm not. Let me assure you I respect your beliefs and I have mine (and they are likely very similar to yours) but they are mine and mine alone. In a personal conversation I might share them with you if the conversation came up but I'd never use them to sell to you, that just isn't right.

Iknow with 100% assurance that Zig believes what he says and that he believes that he is doing the highest good. He wants the best for you, for me and for himself.

I sincerely hope that Zig Ziglar will get back to what he does best, teach people the base skills of selling. I'm just afraid that he won't. And because of that . . .

Today was a really sad day for me.

Comments

[Justin]

“In fact, I believe that everyone must have faith whether it is in God or something else that you believe strongly enough in to have hope.”

So if I believe it strong enough, it must be true.

I would agree that faith is essential in order to have hope - that pigs can fly or that any idea with no evidence to support it is true.

But the fundamental distinction among "faith" and its synonyms is the evidence for supporting it.

And accepting conclusions contrary to the facts is not anything you can expect to do very long and survive.

[Dave]

So are you saying that there is no evidence for faith? Because that flies in the face of all current scientific research. Not necessarily faith in any religious diety or other notion that is not supportable by evidence, but faith in something that gives you hope. If you click the link I put in the post regarding faith you'll see that there is nothing religious in definition until definition number four. Science clearly proves that particularly in medicine, faith does have a positive impact on disease and recovery.

Or were you saying something else?

[Justin]

I had read the definition.com entries; and you are right, faith does not have to include any religious element. I said in the first post that faith is the method of believing in “any idea with no evidence to support it is true.”

But I do not accept that “faith in something” will lift your hopes. Faith that I am about to die when I have no reason to believe it is not very inspiring.

Even if my faith is positive in nature, I still confront a monumental obstacle. I cannot trust by own mind. My judgment tells me that I cannot trust myself and that my mind will betray me at every step. What I can prove or disprove is meaningless because I believe what I want. But once I’ve stepped in that minefield, how can I say which faith to believe. In the end, I will come to believe that my mind is my own worst enemy to the same extent that I rely on faith to live.

Since faith is not based on any evidence—and often in spite of it—no one can sway my mind with conclusion to the contrary or anything of the sort. Faith by its own invention is blind. That is the fundamental difference between our ideas.

And to answer your question, I have never heard that faith in and of itself cures illness. I have heard that in some way acting on that faith does. I have no doubts that it is true.

It’s physiological, a placebo effect, nothing more. If you would rather see a preacher than a doctor to cure a disease, for example, that is your business and it’s soon to be the funeral director’s too.

[Dave]

Justin -

If you can have no faith in anything and you can't trust your mind it becomes a little difficult to live. Though I see your point, I think it requires a better explanation. The logial conclusion of your argument is that nothing is real it is all created by your mind and if you can't trust your mind then you can't trust reality because it is the ultimate trick played by your mind. And it explains why we are fooled by the magician and the lover.

There actually is proof that faith and hope do cause phisiological changes in your blood chemistry which can have an impact on your ability to heal and to fight disease.

You are making a philosopic/religious argument where one does not exist.

But I like the way you think, thanks for reading the blog and for being very insightful, I'm honored that lucid thinkers like you will invest your time in what I write.

In case you haven't already read the book "The Holographic Mind" I think you'd find it very interesting.

Please do continue to comment, I look forward to your insights!

Regards,
Dave

[Justin]

A philosophic argument is absolutely at the heart of the matter. But the logical conclusion of my argument is not that “nothing is real.”

I apologize for the confusion. I do not mean that “I cannot trust [sic] my own mind” when I use it. My point was that once I come to accept faith as a way of gaining knowledge, I must conclude that my own mind is not enough. That in fact, it is a burden.

Once faith is the guide, people must conclude that they can no longer trust themselves.
I should have added a phrase to my second post so that it read in part, “BY ACCEPTING FAITH, I cannot trust my own mind.” I should have made that clearer before.

So we each have our choice: the mind or magic. They are not compatible.

As for faith and hope curing illness, I don’t think anyone will be in any position fully to understand the capacity of such a wonderful, complex entity as the brain for a very long time. But I suspect that if physiological changes are experienced, then it is not the faith, but the nature of the brain at work.

If hope or courage or anything like that played a part, then faith was a just a tool the patient used, if only to hold on for a bit longer. But faith is just one tool—and certainly not the best.

If you ask me, they are diametrically opposed.

P.S.
As a marketing grad student, I do enjoy reading the site, esspecially when facing some challenging ideas.

[Zane Darner]

Thanks for an insightful response to an interesting topic Dave. I agree with your experience as being a Sad Day.

I recently had a conversation with a client who had similar feelings about a church service. She went there to sing, pray, and learn in relation to her belief. She knew that there would be a few moments dedicated to a fund raising focus. What she sat through, however, was a business meeting talking about ways to generate the funds needed to expand the church. A very un-uplifting experience for what she was expecting. A noble endeavor, but misrepresented nonetheless.

"Faith," "devotion," and "confidence" are all translations of the Paili word 'saddha.' Those terms refer to that feeling that opens the mind and heart to what is beyond our usual ego concerns and desires; it opens us up to what is greater than ourselves... to the possibility of freedom.

Thanks again for sharing what I've heard many others express about that same meeting. They didn't have anything against the scriptures... they did though resent paying for a seminar that they felt misrepresented.

Have the best of days,

Zane

[Otis Hackett]

Consider the word "Faith" as a verb. With that definition, one must already accept and/or believe something to have faith in, or "to faith" in that something. The mere act of "faith-ing" then becomes the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.

[Dave]

Changing the word to a verb doesn't change the definition of the word, it remains a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

You can't faith your way into being a millionaire, you can't faith your way into a concert without a ticket, and you can't faith your way onto an airplane. In fact the only thing that requires blind faith is religion because there is no factual evidence to prove who is right or who is wrong and that is my issue with mixing business and religion. What bad things happen to good people or their businesses, religion is the first to say "it's God's will." Which simply can't be proven, but it is delivered as if it were fact. Then when you have people with a high degree of influence over others telling them that the way to success is through religion and God, you open the door for all kinds of abuse of power. Again you are asking them to have faith that everything will turn out right which negates the need for anything (like proper education or work) other than faith to be successful.

Belief is another word that is used to promote faith, belief is defined as: The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another. Again, you can believe you'll get on the plane without a ticket all you want, but it still won't happen.

My point in this whole post remains that your beliefs guide who you are and how you present yourself to the world, they make up a part of your persona. As a result of your beliefs (particularly religious) you must have faith in order to maintain the belief. And, if you look at history, nearly everything that we believed to be true from Gods throwing lightning bolts to the earth being flat have all been proven untrue. Nearly everything we believed to be true 1000 years ago have been conclusively proven false.

A much more appropriate belief for business would be to believe that if I choose a good business, develop a good model, provide a significant competitive advantage to the properly identified group of people that they will buy from me. If I serve them appropriately and give them powerful reasons to come back to me that they will. If I continue to study and learn then my changes of success increase purportionately. I'm responsible for my success or failure and no one else.

Now, having said all that, am I against you believing in God or having faith in God? Absolutely not, that is your choice. Do I think faith is bad, again, no. But do I think that either of those things need to be present to have a successful business? Absolutely not.

If you absolutely must mix religion with business, then let your actions speak louder than your words and let those who are seeking find you. THEN and ONLY THEN, share your belief and your faith with them alone.

[Ryan]

1. Whereas I do not necessarily believe that anyone should lead people on to believe they are going to receive one thing and then give another, there is some irony here. Those who do not want to pay to here the gospel will ultimately pay with their soul. I would much rather pay money, here the truth and gain eternal life, than pay money and learn how to gain this world's wealth and lose my soul.

2. For those who are Believers, business is secondary, it is a means to an end. The preaching should be how you do business and then those around you will listen. But for true Believers, you cannot seperate your faith from your business...in fact, it should drive your business to do what is right by others.

3. There are more verses in the Bible dealing with Finances then with Heaven and Hell combined. The principles contained in the Bible about relationships and finances will increase any legitimate business by a great deal. I wouldn't be so quick to know mentioning Bible verses and princples, they are very, very powerful.

[Ryan]

That last line should say "knock", not know. =0(

[Ryan]

Faith - The substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen. Blind faith is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as the very definition requires evidence. There is evidence of God just as there is evidence of the wind, which you don't see. Most of the evidence is obvious, and further backed by mathematical statistics. Do you actually believe that if you were to put all of the pieces of a computer into a box and shook long enough that they would all just happen to come together and form a working computer? Get real. One quick look into the body and mind of a man knows that we are not chance. If you deny it, it is because you want to be ignorant on purpose. Look around you. The one thing that cannot be found on any other planet in even the smallest amount is water. How in the world did we just happen to get all of it???? Even it if was found on another planet...again...look at the difference in volume. Look at the range of temperature that we can survive in without shelter. Approximately 40 - 105...and that is pushing it. There is evidence of God for those who open their eyes. God requires no one to believe in Him without evidence. He does expect us to believe when He has given us an abundance of evidence. Faith is the belief in that evidence, not belief void of it.

p.s. I realize I am a little late with this post, I just now ran across it. Sorry.